(include a youtube video if possible).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-2tnp9whdu.
There are so many wonderful songs but if I had to choose these could be it. Forgot to add that I love Bing Crosby's Christmas Song. There's nothing like the old songs.
Christmas The Christmas Song by Nat King Cole http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8FID8CkHDA
Perry Como O Holy Night http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWkjqMpzmKk
"Mary, Did You Know?" By Mark Lowry http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0WIJw8JVeU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iliwqimjrye.
jeff .
I prefer Yo Yo Ma. You might like Apocalyptica.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JjQGt7WjK0&eurl=http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/27/167876/1.ashx
Have always liked these threads. I've been working on a project on the computer today that has to be finished by Friday so it gives me a chance to listen to music that I haven't heard for quite a while, or music I've never heard before.
I really liked Jethro Tull. I also love Classical music so would rather listen to Bach as it was originally intended. But some may really like this.
Jethro Tull: Bach's Double Violin Concerto http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4bxGXqXQE0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzjmtsaal8g.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh-niicv39e&feature=related.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgb5iweiyg8.
Great torch songs. I loved Dusty Springfield. Hope you enjoy the following.
Dusty Springfield - I Close My Eyes And Count To Ten http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOTCC51iGhM
Dusty Springfield - You Don't Have To Say You Love Me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7n0HJEMqjA&feature=related
Cilla Black - You're My World http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1CjES_wJIw
Brenda Lee - All Alone Am I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg6-VwjmjgQ&feature=related
Etta James / At Last http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fSY_S45rZ4&feature=related
Lara Fabian - Je suis Malade http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIIL5p7_WKk
LARA FABIAN JE T'AIME - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-roGMGyFu0
I think I may have overdone it? I was going to post the following on another thread last night. Anyway I need to go back to work.
Cowboy Junkies - Angel Mine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L73VjMAUews
COWBOY JUNKIES...misguided angel - (acoustic) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdCIPJzSmRg
Leonard Cohen: Dance Me to the End of Love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_PIadFsvDk
i thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.
i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.
those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.
Scholar: All other Christian faiths do not believe in the Kingdom because they would preach it but they do not as you well know. They simply mouth it as a word, concept or phrase not understanding its reality and significance. Only the Witnesses understand it, preach it and represent it.
First I have a problem comparing all other faiths with this organization as though this organization is Christian. The requirement of being a Christian is to believe in Jesus Christ. Witnesses simply mouth it as a word, concept or phrase not understanding its reality and significance. Only true Christians, unlike witnesses understand it, preach it and represent it.
Scholar: You seem to a bit of a drama queen for asserting that WT doctine has harmed families, this is just satanic or demonic propaganda. The True Religion including its doctrines which are all Bible based bind families together in love-hope-faith.
The witnesses have asserted that Christendom is harmful, tools of the devil that will be destroyed at Armegeddon. I could say that this is just satanic or demonic propoganda. You are correct, the true religion including its doctrines which are all Bible based, bind families together in love-hope-faith. Your religion breaks families apart. Even though I was never a witness I saw first hand how some people in this organization treated my mother. Apart from a few phone calls here and there, she was ignored after her husband passed away and you have the gall to say that this organization is loving. She found more love this past year from "Christendom" than she ever experienced in the Kingdom Hall. These are my experiences, not second hand stories. Us four siblings didn't really have parents growing up while they were witnesses. I couldn't understand why they lived the way they did. I now realize why. They both truly thought they would never die. My mother always talked about the end times and imagining what it would be like living in Paradise. She was and is difficult to deal with because of her depressive personality. One day when she totally walks away her true self will appear. She is a funny creative woman.
Scholar: Again I will quote you, All other Christian faiths do not believe in the Kingdom because they would preach it but they do not as you well know. They simply mouth it as a word, concept or phrase not understanding its reality and significance. Only the Witnesses understand it, preach it and represent it.
Do you know first hand that "all other Christian faiths do not believe in the Kingdom or preach it? Many do but they don't obsess about it. In my response to Renaia, to which she never responded, I mentioned that many churches believe in a literal 1,000 year reign. We preach the Gospel - The Good News of Jesus, that he died for our sins, that whoever believes in Him has eternal life. Here is my response on that subject if you're interested. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/167642/3104560/post.ashx#3104560
i thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.
i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.
those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.
Before submitting my post I noticed more responses and will read them later tonight.
Christianity is more than a list of beliefs: it is a relationship with God through Christ.
Renaia, I admire perseverance but not bullheadedness. It’s like beating a dead horse. You have made up your mind. For the most part I want to address some of the things you have said for those that may be lurking and I think that may be the case for many of us here. You speak untruths, we want to set the record straight.
I read an article recently about trying to feed those that didn’t want to be fed. Meanwhile those going hungry wanting to be fed were ignored. This could be the case in this thread. Yes Renaia, you readily swallow what food the discreet slave offers you but I believe it’s the wrong food. It doesn’t nourish you; it enslaves you like a drug.
I agree that some like the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons believe that they are the only way. I know that the Roman Catholic church at one time taught that they were the only true church but don’t know where they stand now.
Mormons believe they are the only way. My mom almost went to a Mormon church about a month ago because the two men at the door seemed so sincere. Nothing like trading in one cult for another. Needless to say she is very confused. Instead she went with us.
I have spoken to people of many different denominations. I have yet to meet someone that says that you must belong to their denomination because they have the only truth. We embrace each other in spite of the differences. We are all imperfect human beings. There is no such thing as one true church. In spite of our differences, we see ourselves as the body of Christ. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
I left one church after 14 years because of a doctrine that I disagreed with. Does that mean I don’t care for them anymore; that they are not part of the body of Christ? No.
I am slowly separating from another church because of a doctrine that I disagree with. The church that I have attended these past three weeks is, for me, closer to what the Bible says. Does that mean that I dismiss the other church that I have attended for the past 5 years? No.
I am so grateful for what this church has done for me, for my family. Even though I am walking away from this church over a doctrine I disagree with, they are still my brothers and sisters in Christ. This church was the catalyst for my mom starting to leave. When she was grieving over her husbands death, the organization wasn’t there for her. This church was. They are embracing her. Even though there are beliefs she disagrees with she senses a warmth and genuine caring people. I love these people.
Yesterday we went to the one denomination in the morning and the other in the evening. Did I feel any conflict? No. I felt fed at both in different ways.
For me, these churches have been like markers in my journey. All have molded and strengthened me in my walk. I am grateful to all of them. We have a strong common bond. The love for God and His Son, Jesus Christ.
i thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.
i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.
those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.
Barry: In the issue of the cross the WT beleives it is so important it is one of the points of doctrine right in the baptisimal statement. I cant think of any church that is so petty.
You brought up the baptism. I don't know if Renaia realizes that the baptism questions were changed in 1985. I wonder if she can show us where in the bible that it states that a person has to answer a bunch of questions prior to being baptized. I heard 100 but I can't imagine this being true. I'd be interested to know what these questions are. All quotes from Watchtower are in red.
Did the eunuch have to answer questions prior to being baptized? Was he required to become a member of an organization? Sorry, he didn't need to back then. Only if he was alive today and got baptized after 1985.
Prior to 1985 Have you recognized yourself before Jehovah God as a sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him the Father through his Son Christ Jesus?
On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Christ Jesus and through the Bible under the enlightenment of the holy spirit?
After 1985 On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will? (what happened to the need of salvation?)
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?’
Renaia: it's easy to tell which people on here were once witnesses and which are just ones repeating what is the group line and various things come up again and again.
Because I have never been a witness, could I be one of the people you believe is just parroting what the people here on JWD are saying? Could it be that the very thing you accuse others of could be applied to you; that whatever the organization tells you, you parrot?
You say that you go by doctrine. Many people here have brought up doctrine but because it's contrary to your views, you dismiss it. I sense that many here are sincere and right. I sense you are sincere and wrong. I go by what I read in my Bible and it's not in allignment with JW doctrine.
Independant Thinking: I'm curious to know what you think about independant thinking, something that is highly discouraged within the org. How can you have discernment and at the same time avoid independant thinking?
This is what the Bible says:
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
This is what the organization says:
"Avoid Independent Thinking" Watchtower Jan. 15 1983.
....some who point out that the organization has had to make some adjustments before, and so they argue: "This shows that we have to make up our own mind on what to believe." This is independent thinking. Why is it so dangerous?
Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983.
....In Jehovah's organization it is not necessary to spend a lot of time and energy in research, for there are brothers in the organization who are assigned to that very thing.... ,Watchtower June 1, 1967.
From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah's people those, who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude...They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such 'Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago... Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1981.
First, since "oneness" is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave. Watchtower, Aug. 1, 2001.
Renaia, I had two witness women come to the door last week. I mentioned independant thinking. The one woman (pretending to be annoyed) with her hands on her hips, swaying them sideways, said, "so we should go to the faithful and discreet slave and say screw you. This woman had been in for a long time. Do you think she was just influenced by me because I'm not a witness; that I may be a tool of the devil? Needless to say I was not impressed.
You do have stamina to come back each time. Personally I wish I had the time for this. You obviously have brought up a couple of topics that are interesting to a lot of people, seeing all the responses and amount of viewing. But I have to wonder why you come here. To convince others?, to convince yourself?, or to purge yourself of the wrongs you have done; that through all this you may rectify what you have done in your life? In that case you are working for your salvation. You repent of your sins, don't try to do them again, and you will be forgiven. We all sin, we all need to be forgiven by God, but I'm wondering if you have forgiven yourself.
No faith run by and full of imperfect people can stand that sort of scrutiny, That why I go with doctrine and not imperfection issues.
You think other religions haven't been so severely scrutinized? Again, why do you give the organization free reign to make mistakes; that they are imperfect men, but when "Christendom" makes mistakes we are tools of the devil. This organization teaches that they are the sole channel through which God speaks. Don't you think, if God was going to use a group through which He spoke, that He would make sure that this group didn't make so many mistakes? Did Moses keep having to go up the mountain to change the ten commandments because he kept making mistakes, did Noah keep redoing his boat because he kept making so many mistakes?
I also go by doctrine, as many here do. That's why I have never been, never will be a witness.
Renaia, I'm curious to know if you read my other response to this thread, re Eternal Life? Anyway I must go. Things to do. Have a good evening.
i thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.
i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.
those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.
Hi Renaia:
Hi guest with questions
your questioning the 144.000 well the number is in the bible and the bible does mention annointed, you use a lot of wt quotes but do you think jesus will goto the real israel then? and who do you think are the annointed? it's not an easy question It's one I believe because I do want to stay on earth and have what Jehovah promised Adam. if there is just one group that all just get swept upto heaven that doesn't make sense either because of the mention of a ruling class etc who do they rule?
Living on Earth/the Name Jehovah
You say that you want to stay on earth. Many churches, including the church that I have attended in the past and the one I attend now, David Jeremiah and Charles Stanley, just to name a few, believe in a literal 1,000 year reign. Also as a side note many churches do say Jehovah is His name. It's not just Jehovah's Witnesses. I personally don’t like it as I believe it is a man-made name. Yahweh is closer but not accurate either. We don’t know the accurate pronunciation of His name and I don't think we should choose a name that is close enough, or good enough. I don’t think it’s a requirement for salvation, just as many other beliefs are not necessary for salvation. Jesus said believe in me and you will have eternal life. He is the way, the truth and the life. When we love someone we want to learn as much as possible about him. We want a relationship with him.
Until this past year it wasn’t a subject that I was as interested in as some of the others. It could be fear because of my Jehovah’s Witness parents. It was a subject that I dreaded and avoided for a long time. I don't fear it anymore.
This is what I have pieced together so far and I might have to rethink some things but am starting to see a clearer picture. My feeling is that new light can be something revealed to the individual, something that he didn’t know before. As I stated before some beliefs are not a requirement for salvation. I may have the order wrong, I may have some things wrong but I am searching the scriptures. Whether I am right or wrong in some areas doesn't make me loose or gain eternal life.
I believe that all who die as believers will go up to heaven, but not sure if they are concious of anything. At the cross Jesus did say to one of the criminals that he would be in Paradise with Jesus that day. Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise. (not, truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.)
Rapture
Some say that the Rapture could occur at any time. Some say before, some say during or after the Tribulation. At the Rapture all believers who have died will be resurrected first. Then all believers still alive will meet Jesus in the air. True believers will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.
Peace
There will be peace for about 3 ½ years on earth. Apparently a peace treaty will be signed with Israel and they will think they will at last have a peaceful existence but it’s short lived.
Tribulation
Then there will be a great tribulation lasting about 3 ½ years (1260 days). Then Jesus will come back with the Church (believers) to Jerusalem. (not a figuritive but the literal Jerusalem-Mount of Olives). Every eye will see Jesus.
1000 year reign
After the battle Jesus will reign on earth for a thousand years. The believers will help rule. It seems that you might get different rewards depending what you have done on earth during your lifetime. After this time there will be the Judgment.
New Heaven and New Earth
I then get the sense from reading Rev 21 that there will be a New Heaven and New Earth; that heaven and earth come together. It seems that it is at this point that there will be no more suffering and God himself will live with us. It’s interesting to note that Israel was the bride of God, and all believers are the bride of Christ.
I have to say that I prefer this version to the Watchtower version as there is a horrible clean up of all the dead carcasses by the people left over. But what's important is, what does the Bible really say will happen.
Jews coming to Christ
This past Wednesday night I talked to a Jewish gentlemen that now believes that Yeshua (Jesus) is his Saviour. As foretold in the Bible many Jews will realize that Jesus is the Messiah they have been waiting for. Their hearts were hardened but they will be softened. This is happening. Many Muslims are also converting.
144,000
He doesn't believe that the 144,000 is a literal number. I don’t know if it’s to be taken literally or figuritively. My understanding prior to speaking to him, (and I could be wrong-this is a learning process) that towards the end Jewish people will witness throughout the world preaching the Gospel to their own people and this is happening. At this point this is what I believe until someone can show me otherwise. It makes sense but I realize that it doesn’t necessarily mean that it is scriptural.
The Annointed
I believe that all who have received Jesus into their hearts are annointed. Some people, because of pride, think they are above others, but Paul said that no-one is without sin.
1 John 2:26-27 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the annointing you received from Him remains in you, and you don’t need anyone to teach you. But as His annointing teaches you about all things and as that annointing is real, not counterfeit -just as it has taught you, remain in Him.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for youare all one in Christ Jesus.
I have been doing a personal study on Israel and hope to eventually post it on JWD. Renaia I do hope you read it.
As for my mom, she is slowly walking away after 36 years. She is confused but she has seen the hypocricy, the lack of love and some of the falsehoods on her own, without any help from me. I believe that God is working in her. I can proclaim the word but I can’t convict her. Likewise I can’t convict you. Read your Bible without preconceived teachings from the Watchtower and you will see it also. New light will be revealed to you. This new light didn’t change, but it will be revealed to you personally as new light.
i thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.
i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.
those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.
Renaia: I'm sure these quotes and scriptures have been posted on your threads before. You seem to question the sincerity of Christians here; that they want to tear you away from this organization. The reverse is most likely true also; that you want to bring people back to the organization. I sense many here are sincere believers who love God. I am one of them. I'm curious to know, when the organization brings new light why is that acceptable; that they are imperfect men. But when "Christendom" has made mistakes, they are tools of the devil, deceiving their people?
The following quotes are from the organization that you belong to. My comments are in italics. What the bible actually says is in red.
EVERLASTING LIFE
At the end of the thousand years, the last trace of sin and its consequence, death, will have been destroyed...But does this reaching of perfection...mean that such persons cannot sin? No, for persons reaching that state will not be assured of everlasting life until they prove faithful against a final attack by Satan the Devil.’ Life Does Have a Purpose, 1977. Because of time I can't go into this, but my understanding from my Bible reading, is that our salvation is secure. If we feel that we constantly have to seek God's approval then we think that our works will save us. Ephesians states that it is through grace that we are saved, so we can't boast. No amount of works will save us. We do works because we are saved already.
Your attitude toward them wheatlike annointed ‘brothers’ of Christ and the treatment you accord then will be the determining factor as to whether you go into ‘everlasting cutting-off’ or receive ‘everlasting life.’ Watchtower, Oct 1, 1981. They seem to claim that they are mediators between God and man (the Great Crowd?) If our attitude towards them is wrong they have the power to withold everlasting life?
‘...One moment’s indiscretion, one lapse in good judgment, may undo all that has been built up, even jeopardizing our eternal welfare.’ Watchtower, Aug. 1, 1992. Again, this sounds like works to me.
‘Do not conclude that there are different roads, or ways, that you can follow to gain life in God's new system. There is only one. There was just the one ark that survived the Flood, not a number of boats. And there will be only one organization—God's visible organization—that will survive the fast-approaching "great tribulation." It is simply not true that all religions lead to the same goal. (Matthew 7:21-23; 24:21)
You must be part of Jehovah's organization, doing God's will, in order to receive his blessing of everlasting life.’—Psalm 133:1-3. You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth, 1982. Show me where in the Bible that it states that a person has to come to an organization? And if it does state that, what makes you think it's the JW organization? According to my Bible it states that if you believe in the Son that God has sent into the world, you will have eternal life. You want to do what is right because you love God. He changes you when you allow Him to work in you. We can't change ourselves.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 6:40 For the Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 17:3 Now this eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Jude 21 Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
MEDIATOR
Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members. Worldwide Security Under the Prince of Peace. I'm doing a personal study on Spiritual Israel and hope to post it before this site goes down. It proves without a doubt that this organization has not replaced Israel; that God has made an everlasting covenant with Israel. The Jews rejected God; He did not reject them; their hearts were hardened but God is doing wonderful things to bring His chosen people back to Him. May 14, 1948 one prophesy was fullfilled when the Jews went back to their homeland. Most Jews are secular but that is changing. Their hearts will be softened. When Jesus died, we as Gentiles were grafted into that same tree.
‘Is Jesus the ‘mediator’ only for anointed Christians? …… So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the ‘mediator’ only for anointed Christians. ……The ‘great crowd’ of ‘other sheep’ that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the ‘little flock’ of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant.’ Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1979.
They recognize that they are not spiritual Israelites in the new covenant mediated by Jesus Christ, nor part of the ‘chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation.’—1 Pet. 2:9. 24 Yet they do benefit from the operation of the new covenant. They benefit from this just as, in ancient Israel, the ‘alien resident’ benefitted from residing in among the Israelites who were in the Law covenant.—Ex. 20:10; Lev. 19:10, 33, 34; Rev. 7:9-15. 25. To keep in relationship with ‘our Savior, God, the ‘great crowd’ needs to remain united with the remnant of spiritual Israelites.’ Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1979.
1 Timothy 2:3-5 This is good, and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus...’
PROPHESY
I don't need to say how many times this organization has prophesied in God's name and it didn't come true. Either Russell or Rutherford basically said, when the organization prophesied, that God had spoken and we couldn't change it if we wanted to. These people are the foundation of this organization. In 20 years, in 1 year, what the Governing Body says today, might become obsolete? We have new light?
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. And you may say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’ When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. Are these verses not clearenough?
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: Because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.
17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.
"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?
Because of time I won’t be able to read all the responses but I did skim over and saw great scripture supporting the doctrine of the Trinity. I will try to read the whole thread later in the week. Hopefully I didn't repeat too many things that others already covered.
I believe in the divinity of Jesus. Jesus/the Word is God the Son, He is not God the Father. They are distinct and equal entities. Jesus did not pray to himself. He prayed to His Father. If one understands who Jesus truly is, one realizes the sacrifice he made for us.
Renaia if you are reading the bible, not just the NWT, and not just their magazines, I believe, you would eventually see it for yourself. I think it may be fear that is holding you back. Don't take our word for it. Pray to God for guidance and protection. He isn’t going to steer you wrong. I have posted a few scriptures. There are so many more.
I feel that as a Christian I must proclaim the message but it’s really not up to me to convince anyone of truth. The Holy Spirit will convict a person if he truly believes and he asks for the truth.
SOME QUESTIONS FOR YOU, RENAIA
If God is all about relationships wouldn’t He, before creation of man, not have had a relationship with someone?
If God is Love, how was He able to share that love if He was all by Himself before He created Jesus? He was in love with Himself?
Why would an Almighty God create only one angel and then have the angel create everything else?
If Jesus is begotten by God, how can that be if Jesus is an angel? God can only beget God. He can’t beget an angel because God isn’t an angel.
Who is the Alpha & the Omega, the beginning and the end, the First and the Last?
Who is coming in Revelations?
CREATOR
Isaiah 44:24 I am the Lord, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself, Isaiah 45:12 It is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it, My own hands stretched out the heavens; and Isaiah 48:12: My own hand laid the foundations of the earth.
Romans 11:35 & 36. Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.
Col 1:15-17 NIV He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
FIRSTBORN
Jesus is the firstborn over all creation, not the firstborn in creation. Col 1:17 He is before all things and in him all things hold together.
The firstborn son of the patriarchal age was the heir to the majority or all of his father's property. Deut. 21:17
David, although lastborn of Jesse, received a birthright as a gift from God who says in Psalm 89:27, "I also shall make him my firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth." The firstborn signified a ruler as well as heir and in this case David's inheritance prefigured the greater inheritance of Jesus, son of David.
By calling the Son of God the "Firstborn over all creation," Paul acknowledged Jesus as heir and ruler of the world from the beginning. Ruler of all things, not all Eden, nor all Israel, nor even all the world, but ALL things–– Col 1:16"because in him all things were created, in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities––all things have been created through him and for him".
CAN I ASK YOU RENAIA WHY THERE IS A DISCREPANCY BETWEEN THE NWT AND THE JW's KINGDOM INTERLINEAR AT COL 1:15-17?
Col 1:15-17 (NWT) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all (other) things were created in the heavens and upon the earth; the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All (other) things have been created through him, and for him. Also, he is before all (other) things and by means of him all (other) things were made to exist.
Kingdom InterlinearCol 1:15-17 who is image of the God the invisible, firstborn of all creation, because in him it was created the all (things) in the heavens and upon earth, the (things) visible and the (things) invisible, whether thrones or lordships or governments or authorities; the all (things) through him and into him it has been created; and he is before all (things) and the all (things) in him it has stood together.JESUS EMPTIED OR LOWERED HIMSELF
Phil 2:6-8 NIV Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death – even death on a cross!
Phil 2:6-8 KJV Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
WHO IS THIS JESUS?
Mark 4:39-41 He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, "Quiet! Be still!" Then the wind died down and it was completely calm. He said to his disciples, "Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?" They were terrified and asked each other, "Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!"
Psalm 93:4 Mightier than the thunder of the great waters, mightier than the breakers of the sea— the LORD on high is mighty.
IN ISAIAH WHO DID HE SEE WITH HIS EYES?
Isaiah 6:5 Woe to me! I cried. I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty. (who is spoken of here?)
John 12:37-41 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them." Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. (who is spoken of here?)
it has been awhile since i've posted anything, but i got this e-mail from someone who is on the edge of falling out of the borg due to mental stress.
i've attempted to verify the information, even called the united nations, but haven't gotten to a person who can say if this meeting happened.
my gut says this is a contrived experience with many details just not adding up...but you never know.
Not having ever been a witness, not believing anything coming from them, I also think this just another silly story going around.
But I do believe that there is something going on at the UN that should concern us all. It may not be the end of Religion but I do believe that Islam wants world domination and this may be the first step. When we continue to hear of Christians being killed in the Islamic countries for voicing their beliefs one has to wonder about their protection. I don't believe that Islam wants to protect all faiths, just their own. I have provided some links. Sorry for the mess. I'm always in a hurry but felt this was important.
Press Release United Nationshttp://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2004/hrcn1082.doc.htm
The Commission adopted by a roll-call vote a resolution on combating defamation of religions (E/CN.4/2004/L.5) by 29 in favour, 16 against, with 7 abstentions, by which it welcomed the report of the Special Rapporteur on contemporary forms of racism entitled ""Situation of Muslim and Arab peoples in various parts of the world""; expressed deep concern at negative stereotyping of religions and manifestations of intolerance in some regions of the world; urged States to ensure equal access to education for all in law and in practice; expressed deep concern that Islam was frequently and wrongly associated with human rights violations and terrorism; noted with deep concern the intensification of the campaign of defamation of religions, and the ethnic and religious profiling of Muslim minorities in the aftermath of the tragic events of 11 September 2001; and expressed deep concern at programmes and agendas pursued by extremist organizations and groups aimed at the defamation of religions, in particular when supported by governments.
The Commission also urged all States, in conformity with international human rights instruments, to take all appropriate measures to combat hatred, discrimination, intolerance, and acts of violence motivated by religious intolerance; urged all States to ensure that all public officials in the course of their official duties respected different religions and did not discriminate on grounds of religion; strongly deplored physical attacks and assaults on businesses, cultural centres and places of worship of all religions; called upon the international community to initiate a global dialogue to promote a culture of tolerance based on respect for religious diversity; called upon the High Commissioner for Human Rights to promote and include human rights aspects in the Dialogue among Civilizations; and requested the Special Rapporteur to examine the situation of Muslim and Arab peoples in various parts of the world with special reference to physical assaults and attacks against their places of worship, cultural centres, businesses and properties in the aftermath of the events of 11 September 2001 and to submit a progress report on his findings to the Commission at its sixty-first session.
In favour (29): Argentina, Bahrain, Bhutan, Brazil, Burkina Faso, China, Congo, Costa Rica, Cuba, Egypt, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Gabon, Honduras, Indonesia, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Paraguay, Qatar, Russian Federation, Saudi Arabia, Sierra Leone, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Togo, Uganda and Zimbabwe.
Against (16): Australia, Austria, Croatia, Dominican Republic, France, Germany, Guatemala, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, Sweden, Ukraine, United Kingdom and United States.
Abstentions (7): Armenia, Chile, India, Mexico, Nepal, Peru and Republic of Korea.
Organization of the Islamic Conference http://www.oic-oci.org/oicnew/page_detail.asp?p_id=52
American Centre for Law and Justice http://www.aclj.org/TrialNotebook/Read.aspx?id=680
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,432502,00.html
U.N. Anti-Blasphemy Resolution Curtails Free Speech, Critics Say Monday, October 06, 2008
By Jennifer Lawinski
Religious groups and free-speech advocates are banding together to fight a United Nations resolution they say is being used to spread Sharia law to the Western world and to intimidate anyone who criticizes Islam.
The non-binding resolution on ""Combating the Defamation of Religion"" is intended to curtail speech that offends religion -- particularly Islam.
Pakistan and the Organization of the Islamic Conference introduced the measure to the U.N. Human Rights Council in 1999. It was amended to include religions other than Islam, and it has passed every year since.
In 2005, Yemen successfully brought a similar resolution before the General Assembly. Now the 192-nation Assembly is set to vote on it again.
The non-binding Resolution 62/145, which was adopted in 2007, says it ""notes with deep concern the intensification of the campaign of defamation of religions and the ethnic and religious profiling of Muslim minorities in the aftermath of 11 September 2001.""
It ""stresses the need to effectively combat defamation of all religions and incitement to religious hatred, against Islam and Muslims in particular.""
But some critics believe the resolution is a dangerous threat to freedom of speech everywhere. The U.S. government mission in Geneva, in a statement, told the U.N. Human Rights Council in July that ""defamation-related laws have been abused by governments and used to restrict human rights"" around the world, and sometimes Westerners have been caught in the web.
Critics give some recent news events as examples of how the U.N. "blasphemy resolution" has emboldened Islamic authorities and threatened Westerners:
-- On Oct. 3 in Great Britain, three men were charged for plotting to kill the publisher of the novel "The Jewel of Medina," which gives a fictional account of the Prophet Muhammad and his child bride. FOXNews.com reported U.S. publisher Random House Inc., was going to release the book but stopped it from hitting shelves after it claimed that ""credible and unrelated sources"" said the book could incite violence by a ""small, radical segment.""
-- An Afghan student is on death row for downloading an article about the role of women in Islam, FOXNews.com also reported.
-- In December 2007 ""a court reportedly sentenced two foreigners to six months in prison for allegedly marketing a book deemed offensive to Aisha, one of the Prophet Muhammad's wives,"" the U.S. government said.
-- A British teacher was sentenced to 15 days in jail in Sudan for offending Islam by allowing students to name the class teddy bear Muhammad in November 2007.
-- In February 2007 in Egypt an Internet blogger was sentenced to four years in prison for writing a post that critiqued Islam.
-- In 2004, Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh was murdered after the release of his documentary highlighting the abuse of Muslim women.
""It’’s obviously intended to have an intimidating effect on people expressing criticism of radical Islam, and the idea that you can have a defamation of a religion like this, I think, is a concept fundamentally foreign to our system of free expression in the United States,"" said former U.N. Ambassador John Bolton.
Passing the resolution year after year gives it clout, Bolton said. ""In places where U.N. decisions are viewed as more consequential than they are in the U.S., they’’re trying to build up brick-by-brick that disagreement with this resolution is unacceptable.""
Kevin ""Seamus"" Hasson, founder and president of the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, a public interest law firm in Washington that opposes the resolution, said it is a slap in the face of human rights law.
""The whole idea of the defamation of religion is a Trojan horse for something else," Hasson said. "When you talk about defamation, you talk about people being defamed and people being libeled, but ideas can’’t be defamed. Ideas don’’t have rights, people have rights.""
He said the resolution is a shield for Islamic fundamentalists who retaliate against perceived offenses and want to make Islamic Sharia law the law of the land. He said the resolution passes under the guise of protecting religion, but it actually endangers religious minorities in Islamic countries.
""Who could possibly be in favor of defamation?"" Hasson said. ""God may well punish blasphemy in the hereafter, but it’’s not the government’’s job to police in the here and now.""
Paula Schriefer, advocacy director for Freedom House, a member of the Coalition to Defend Free Speech, agrees.
""You have to remember that many of the governments that are pushing forward this idea are not democratic governments,"" she said. ""Citizens of Pakistan or Egypt, who have been two of the ringleaders of this movement, are frequently put in prison or arrested. Even if they’’re not arrested, the fear of being arrested creates an environment of self-censorship.""
Floyd Abrams, Visiting Professor of First Amendment Law at the Columbia Graduate School of Journalism, said that while Americans are protected by the Constitution at home, the U.N. resolution could affect those who travel to countries with anti-free-speech laws and isolate Westerners who oppose restricting religious dialogue.
Neither the Pakistani, the Indonesian nor the Egyptian missions to the U.N. responded to requests for comment. All three are members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference.
